1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF FRESNO 3 -oOo- 4 In the Matter of, ) ) 5 LINDA K. ADANALIAN, ) ) 6 Deceased. ) No. 652295-7 7 8 -oOo- 9 Fresno, California; May 26, 2000 10 -oOo- 11 12 DEPOSITION OF VENU GOPAL, M.D. 13 14 -oOo- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 REPORTED BY: 25 GAE WERFEL, CSR, RPR *** CERTIFICATE NO. 4919 0001 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 I N D E X 2 EXAMINATION PAGE 3 4 BY MR. PABOOJIAN 5, 42, 48 5 BY MR. MELIKIAN 40 6 BY MR. DAVID DALITION 43 7 -oOo- 8 9 EXHIBITS 10 11 PAGE 12 1 - Autopsy Report 4 13 2 - Mineral King Lab Notice 4 14 3 - Toxicology Report Dated 2/15/00 4 15 4 - Letter Dated 3/5/00 4 16 5 - Letter Dated 5/18/00 4 17 6 - Letter Dated 5/22/00 4 18 7 - Coroner Follow-up Report 4 19 8 - Coroner Assignment Report 4 20 9 - Coroner Assignment Report 4 21 10 - CV 4 22 11 - Memo to Dr. Gopal 10 23 12 - 4 Toxicology Reports 13 24 13 - Blood Specimen Bag 17 25 0002 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF FRESNO 3 -oOo- 4 In the Matter of, ) ) 5 LINDA K. ADANALIAN, ) ) 6 Deceased. ) No. 652295-7 ) 7 8 9 -oOo- 10 Fresno, California; May 26, 2000 11 -oOo- 12 The deposition of VENU GOPAL, M.D. was scheduled in 13 the above-entitled matter pursuant to the provisions of law 14 pertaining to the taking and use of depositions, on May 26, 15 2000, at the hour of 3:00 P.M., at the offices of FRESNO 16 COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE, 760 W. Nielsen, Fresno, California, 17 before Gae Werfel, C.S.R. No. 4919, a Certified Shorthand 18 Reporter of the State of California, having offices located 19 at Fresno, California. 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 For MARK ADANALIAN: 3 MARDEROSIAN, OREN & PABOOJIAN BY: WARREN R. PABOOJIAN 4 1260 Fulton Mall Fresno, California 93721 5 For GEORGE DALITION & DAVID DALITION: 6 THORTON DAVIDSON & ASSOCIATES 7 BY: ALLAN MELIKIAN 2055 San Joaquin Street 8 Fresno, California 93721 9 For the COUNTY OF FRESNO: 10 COUNTY COUNSEL BY: JULIANA F. GMUR 11 DEPUTY COUNTY COUNSEL 2220 Tulare Street, 5th Flr. 12 Fresno, California 93721 13 -oOo- 14 Also present was George Dalition, David Dalition, 15 and Mark Adanalian. 16 The following proceedings occurred at the hour of 17 3:25 p.m., and testimony taken, to wit: 18 -oOo- 19 VENU GOPAL, M.D.: 20 Being first duly sworn by the 21 Reporter, testified as follows: 22 -oOo- 23 (Whereupon, Exhibits 1 through 24 10 were marked for identification.) 25 /// 0004 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN 2 Q. Doctor, could you please state and spell your full 3 name for the record, please? 4 A. My name is Venu Gopal. V as in Victor, E N U; 5 Gopal is the last name, G as in George, O P A L. 6 Q. And what is your current profession? 7 A. I'm a licensed physician, and I have a specialty in 8 pathology and forensic pathology. 9 Q. Are you licensed to practice pathology in the State 10 of California? 11 A. Yes, I am. 12 Q. And you are a licensed M.D. in the State of 13 California? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. I take it you've probably had your deposition taken 16 a number of times; is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And there's no need for me to go through the 19 formalities of what a deposition is, is there? 20 A. I do know the formalities generally, unless there's 21 something specific you can let me know. 22 Q. All the admonitions, such as wait until I finish 23 asking my question before you respond; don't speculate to any 24 of my questions, just give me the answers that you know of; 25 okay? Those kind of things? 0005 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. Sure. 2 Q. All right. And most importantly, you understand 3 that your testimony today is given under oath; you understand 4 that? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. And that would be the same oath that you would take 7 in front of a judge and jury; do you understand that? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. Doctor, how long have you worked in the Fresno 10 County Coroner's office? 11 A. Seven years, nine months. 12 Q. Okay. And what is your current title with the 13 coroner's office? 14 A. Current title is -- actually, I'm like the chief 15 forensic pathologist, and I started as the senior forensic 16 pathologist. 17 Q. Is there a chief forensic pathologist? 18 A. Other than -- I am the senior-most guy here, and 19 that's used both ways, senior and chief. 20 Q. Is there a fellow, is it Glaser? 21 A. Todd Glaser. He's a new forensic pathologist. We 22 hired him approximately one year ten months ago. 23 Q. And prior to having your deposition taken today, 24 have you talked to anyone about your deposition except for 25 your attorney, within your department? 0006 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. Have you talked to any outside persons in 3 the last 48 hours about your deposition? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Any outside pathologist, lay persons, anyone? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. All right. Now, it's my understanding that 8 you had the occasion to oversee the autopsy report of a young 9 woman named Linda Adanalian; is that correct? 10 A. Yes. Should I explain how I got involved in this? 11 Q. Yeah, that's going to be my next question. That's 12 correct; isn't it? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. All right. And it's my understanding that Dr. Siu 15 is the one who actually performed the autopsy; is that 16 correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And Dr. Siu is an outside pathologist in the sense 19 that he works in the Stockton area? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And on the date of this autopsy, which I believe 22 was done on February -- is it the 11th? 23 A. It should be there in the autopsy report. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. Let me check. Date performed is 2-12. 0007 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. She was pronounced dead on -- 2 A. On 2-11. 3 Q. Now, why was Dr. Siu called in to perform the 4 autopsy? 5 A. Usually, he's the weekend pathologist who works 6 here. And I was on vacation at the time for almost three 7 weeks; I was out of the country. So at such times, Dr. Siu 8 comes here and works for us, and he has been working for us 9 for the last -- almost more than six years. 10 Q. The autopsy that was performed in this case, was it 11 done according to your office standards and pathology 12 standards? 13 A. Yes, it is conducted according to the office 14 standards. 15 Q. As a result of that autopsy, certain specimens from 16 the decedent were saved; is that correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Do you recall what specimens or samples were saved? 19 A. The entire heart, the lungs, and sections from the 20 various organs of the body -- 21 Q. So would it be -- go ahead, I'm sorry. 22 A. -- and blood. And we retrieved the plasma from the 23 hospital. 24 Q. All right. And when you say "the entire heart," 25 how about the entire set of lungs? 0008 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. Yes. That's my understanding. 2 Q. Okay. Where would the -- it's my understanding 3 that the heart, the complete set is at the Mayo Clinic with 4 Dr. Edwards; is that correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And the lungs, where are they currently? 7 A. They are right here. 8 Q. Okay. What organs do you have currently here in 9 this location, Fresno? 10 A. We have what we call is a storage bottle. In that 11 we have pieces of tissue. 12 Q. From what areas; do you know? 13 A. Yeah, usually from all the organs, because like the 14 brain, kidney and liver. 15 Q. Is there a standard quantity of tissues from these 16 particular organs that you would maintain? 17 A. No. Usually we call it biopsy specimens for 18 microscopic examination, and we store that for five years for 19 examination. And then we would discard it. 20 Q. Is there currently any blood available? 21 A. We have blood, but that needs an explanation. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. What I have left is I made a list of the important 24 organs and the tissues which are currently aware of. 25 MR. PABOOJIAN: I'll mark that next in order. 0009 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 (Whereupon, Exhibit 11 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. PABOOJIAN: 4 Q. I want you to look at Exhibit 11, and tell me what 5 that is? 6 A. What we have is blood left in the lab is 15 7 milliliters; plasma, 400 microliters; and the brain in the 8 formalin storage 15 grams; kidney, eight grams; liver, six 9 grams. 10 Q. Now, this blood, when was the blood obtained? 11 A. Blood was obtained at the time of the autopsy. 12 Q. All right. And you and I had met with an attorney 13 by the name of Dan Baradat, I think you know Mr. Baradat, 14 about two weeks ago; do you remember that? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And at that time, I'm not trying to be nitpicky, we 17 discussed 20 milliliters of blood being left; is that 18 correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Was that just an estimate or did we lose five 21 milliliters of blood somewhere? 22 A. Both. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Because that's what they had measured, the lab told 25 me over the phone, and they said about 20. And they did a 0010 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 test after that for phosphorous and things of that nature, so 2 they used some of that for that. 3 Q. So in addition to being off a little bit, there was 4 another test done since we met? 5 A. Yes. The test results came, and I don't know 6 exactly when they took the test, but it was my understanding 7 that it was done at the time. 8 Q. Out of this 15 milliliters of blood, my question 9 is, is it uncontaminated blood? I think you know where I'm 10 going. 11 A. Exactly. This blood has a preservative, sodium 12 fluoride and mercury oxide. 13 Q. In that blood? 14 A. In that blood. 15 Q. That blood that you have now is currently tainted? 16 A. It's not pure blood. 17 Q. What I want to say -- 18 A. Tainted, it has mercury in there. 19 Q. If you want to disprove mercury toxicity, you can't 20 use that blood? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And I'm talking about, there was mercury toxicity, 23 from what you told me last, is from tablets, I think, a 24 preservative tablet that was placed in the blood that was 25 obtained from Mineral King? 0011 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Can you explain it on the record how you were able 3 to disprove that there was, at least from those samples, 4 there was not mercury toxicity in, at least, any of your 5 findings? 6 A. At this time, I would like to get the permission to 7 look at my records. 8 Q. Sure. 9 A. To refresh my memory. 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. Mercury in my opinion, mercury toxicity is not that 12 common at all, to get this. In fact, we had some results 13 which showed mercury toxicity. So for that reason, we ran a 14 couple of what are known as a blind and a control study, 15 which the lab did not know what we're doing. 16 Q. You say "the lab," you mean the lab in Mineral 17 King? 18 A. The lab in Mineral King, they do not do this test 19 themselves. They send it to nationally known labs, meaning 20 there are two labs, one at Baylor, and one is the National 21 Medical Services in Philadelphia. These are all special 22 tests. And smaller labs do not get the volume to do these 23 tests on a regular basis. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. So I just show you two of them to -- he marked it 0012 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 "With Pill" and "Without Pill." Because the way we did the 2 test was whenever you have an erroneous result, like high 3 mercury, you repeat the test. 4 Q. Got it. 5 A. When it comes back positive, then still there must 6 be something wrong. Maybe it is the lab error; maybe there 7 was something wrong to the procedure. You send it to a 8 different lab. We did that, it came positive again. 9 Then we came back, was there any problem the way we 10 collected the blood? Like some other things laying on the 11 shelves or some other contaminate within our facility. So it 12 was not there. 13 Then the only thing I could think is maybe it's 14 something which is put in there, in the specimen. So we 15 wanted to test the plastic itself, make a minced portion of 16 the plastic and also the pill. But when we sent without the 17 pill, that just came back negative. With the pill, it came 18 back positive. So what we did after that is there are two 19 cases there, where we knew the exact cause of death. 20 Q. Can I mark this? 21 A. Sure. 22 (Whereupon, Exhibit 12 was 23 marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. PABOOJIAN: 25 Q. I've marked this as Exhibit 12. 0013 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 What does Exhibit 12 show? 2 A. Exhibit 12 is -- this person had a cause of that, 3 we knew exactly how he died, but we still sent the blood for 4 heavy metals and we had the pill in that, and it came back 5 positive for mercury toxic levels. 6 So there was no history, there was no reason for us 7 to believe that this person had mercury in his system in any 8 way at this level, because what you need is like ten units of 9 mercury to kill. But we came back with 240 units in this 10 case. That's 24 times the toxic level. 11 So then we knew that we have a big problem here. 12 So in the meantime, we also knew there is something wrong 13 with that because they're coordinating all the tests. So 14 they send a letter, because they're telling me over the phone 15 from Mineral King. I got all these letters ready, I wanted 16 to make a letter in each case what really happened. 17 Q. And that is marked as Exhibit 2, that letter? 18 A. Yep. Do you want me to read that? 19 Q. That letter pertains to the autopsy regarding Linda 20 Adanalian? 21 A. No, this is a general letter that says, "Mercury 22 Test Results with Stabilizing Tablet. It is my 23 strong recommendation that you disregard any 24 mercury results that have been obtained from 25 specimens that have been treated with the tablet 0014 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 that is in our current kits. We have ordered new 2 collection kits that do not have the tablet in the 3 bottles, but in an associated bag. They, 'the 4 tablets,' are for use where there will not be 5 mercury testing ordered." 6 You can use them without mercury. And also, they 7 recently became aware that the tablet contained .36 percent 8 mercury, only recently. 9 Once we raised all these questions, they analyzed 10 this and there is a paper to that effect that showed they had 11 mercury toxicity. There's a general letter, and also there 12 is a usual letter pertaining to all the results where there 13 is mercury. 14 Q. Maybe I ought to send your bill to Mineral King 15 today. Maybe that's what I ought to do. 16 A. We have done that, and also there is an ongoing 17 test in this, because there's a question, is this really a 18 scientific test. So what we have done is, we have collected 19 two more specimens, take two separate tubes, take equal 20 quantity in the same person, one who had a traffic accident, 21 a homicide or anything, these are all at random, take same 22 quantity, put pill in one tube, and send the other tube to 23 try without the pill. 24 So that which we know that the mercury is coming 25 from the pill. And also we have this letter from the Mineral 0015 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 King which said discard all the results and it is coming from 2 the pill. 3 Apart from this, I will leave it to a toxicologist 4 to really comment upon the absorption rates, how it acts and 5 reacts and all that. 6 Q. Okay. Now, the heart that was saved, did it have 7 any of this tainted pill in it? 8 A. On the heart? 9 Q. When you saved the heart, when you harvested the 10 heart and you saved it or preserved it, did any of these 11 tainted mercury pills come in contact with the heart, if you 12 know? 13 A. I don't know that. And I don't know that because I 14 was not there at the time of the autopsy. 15 Q. These pills, are they used during the autopsy 16 procedure? 17 A. They are in the bottle and usually they're put in 18 blood when it's collected. It comes along with the bottle. 19 Q. Tissue samples that are saved or harvested at the 20 time of the autopsy, are the pills placed in those cylinders 21 or vials, are these the same pills we're talking about? 22 A. No, I will give you the general way. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Because I was not there at that autopsy. 25 Q. Give me your standard procedure. 0016 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. My standard procedure is that it's highly unlikely 2 the pill has anything to do with the heart. And also, it's 3 highly unlikely that the tissues which are there may or may 4 not have the mercury because depending on who was handling 5 it, just by touching the mercury pill, it doesn't get 6 transferred to the tissue at that level. 7 But I can't say highly unlikely, but there's 8 obviously a possibility, and the best person to ask would be 9 Dr. Siu, who did the autopsy. 10 Q. All right. Okay. But my chain of thinking here is 11 we got blood; somebody put the pill in the blood that tainted 12 the blood to give it the high levels of mercury. 13 Did that happen here? I'm not blaming the 14 coroner's office -- 15 A. May I take a time out? 16 Q. Sure. 17 A. I can show you the pill and the bottle and how the 18 plastic looks. 19 MR. PABOOJIAN: Let's take a two-minute break and 20 we'll go take a look at that. 21 MS. GMUR: That's fine. 22 (RECESS.) 23 (Whereupon, Exhibit 13 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 /// 0017 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 BY MR. PABOOJIAN: 2 Q. Doctor, you just left the room for a second and you 3 have handed me a plastic baggy with a bottle and some items 4 in it. 5 Why don't you describe to me what Exhibit 13 is now 6 going to be? 7 A. I'm holding a toxicology specimen bottle with a 8 label in a sealed plastic envelope. Within that there is 9 another biohazard envelope. When we are collecting blood, we 10 open the seal, take the bottle and the pill, which comes with 11 this, and then we collect the blood in this, put it in this, 12 seal it back, label it, and then through chain of custody, it 13 goes back. 14 Q. Now, when you -- where do you get this from, this 15 plastic baggy with these bills? 16 A. This is supplied from the Mineral King, from their 17 own private vendor. 18 Q. You buy it from them? 19 A. We don't even buy them. Mineral King has a 20 contract to do all our toxicology, so they supply us with the 21 containers. 22 Q. So you don't even purchase it, it's just provided 23 to you? 24 A. Provided. 25 Q. And it is this tablet -- well, not this tablet. 0018 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. No, probably that is the tablet. 2 Q. Well, if not this tablet, a tablet similar is the 3 culprit, in your opinion, for the mercury toxicity that was 4 found in Linda Dalition Adanalian? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. All right. And it is your medical opinion that at 7 least from this blood sample taken from the autopsy, that 8 this was an error, and that she at this time does not have 9 mercury toxicity? 10 A. That's the way it looks. That's why we are still 11 doing further investigation. This is still an ongoing 12 investigation. I don't know what to say until the final 13 thing. 14 Q. Let me ask the question this way: Is there going 15 to be -- there was a request for the body to be exhumed; do 16 you know that? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. When did you first hear or discuss that the body 19 would be exhumed? 20 A. This thought was going on from almost one or two 21 weeks after the body -- after we did the autopsy. And 22 nothing was clear. And as I said, we do not stop somebody 23 from exhuming the body. They do it for various reasons and 24 it has happened before. If they're not exhumed here, they 25 will exhume it somewhere else. 0019 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 This is more common in case of someone in custody, 2 police custody or things of that nature, where we have police 3 a party to the death. 4 Q. And in this particular case, the police are not a 5 party to this death; is that correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And the Coroner's Office has never contacted the 8 police department in regard to Linda Adanalian's death? 9 A. As far a my knowledge is concerned, they have not 10 contacted the police. 11 Q. "They" being the coroner's office? 12 A. "They" being the coroner's office. 13 Q. You and I met a couple of weeks ago, and we 14 discussed this exhuming of the body; do you recall that? 15 A. I recall that. And also, as I said, what I say at 16 that particular time, basing on what information I had 17 available at the time and what specimens we had at the time. 18 Q. I understand, Doctor, and I'm not here to say you 19 can't change your mind or have a different opinion. But when 20 you and I talked at that time, it was my understanding, at 21 least from the conversation we had, that the body did not 22 need to be exhumed. 23 A. It may not be necessary. Again, it was after that 24 death, there was some other issue that was raised basing on 25 that, I personally feel, and it is my thinking that the body 0020 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 needed to be exhumed. 2 Q. What discussions did you have after you and I 3 talked that you felt now the body needed to be exhumed? 4 A. What we have is a tainted blood because blood is 5 the -- really the standard on which we can say somebody has 6 died of, because if you find something in the urine or in the 7 hair, it doesn't mean that he's been exposed to the poison, 8 but toxic levels are not really determined by that. That's 9 number one. 10 Some of the organs can show that. And the plasma, 11 for some reason for the heavy metals, may not really indicate 12 the exact levels. 13 Q. Is that because of the liquidity of mercury, is 14 that why? 15 A. No, no, because mercury and lead have an affinity 16 to going to the cells instead of the plasma. 17 Q. Mercury could travel to the brain, too, couldn't 18 it? 19 A. Mercury toxicity is mostly to the kidney and the 20 brain. 21 Q. Have there been any tests done to determine any 22 levels of mercury in the kidney or the brain? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Is there any reason why we don't try that? 25 A. Again, you know, what we are afraid at this time is 0021 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 we may have to have more tissues, because we may have 2 tainted. And also we may take the vitreous, if we can 3 retrieve it. I don't know whether we can. When we exhume, 4 some fluids in the eye, we can test it as well. And also I 5 don't want to speculate for all the different tests we can 6 run. 7 Q. So if I understand you correctly, we do have 8 tissues that are untainted that you can test, but you don't 9 feel that they're enough to single out mercury toxicity; is 10 that a fair statement? 11 A. I can't really say -- there are some organ tissues 12 and they are completely soaked in formalin. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. So they may not, really -- for example, if you want 15 to test for cyanide, that may not be the right specimen at 16 all. And also, some of the other, the way this case is 17 going, we would like to see and do as much as we can before 18 we form an opinion. 19 Q. Okay. Now, when you exhume the body or you plan to 20 exhume the body, what are you specifically -- what type of 21 tissues, organs -- what do you want to do? What's the game 22 plan? 23 A. The final game plan will be putting into effect 24 after discussion with Dr. Siu, who is the primary pathologist 25 in this case, but in general terms, we are trying to get the 0022 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 brain, kidney and liver, the brain and a piece of head bone 2 and hair. 3 Q. And again, the purpose to obtain additional samples 4 for the brain is to check it mainly for mercury toxicity? 5 A. Mainly for mercury toxicity. And if there's 6 anything else, we will be running the tests for heavy metals 7 again. 8 Q. And have you ever run a test for heavy metals? 9 A. All this mercury came up because we ran for heavy 10 metals. We didn't specifically run for mercury. 11 Q. When you ran the test for heavy metals, did any 12 other metal show up except for mercury? 13 A. It doesn't mean -- human body usually has some 14 traces of arsenic, but there is a cutoff point. If somebody 15 has high levels, we would know. 16 Q. Would arsenic or any type of poison show up when 17 you did the initial test when it came back with mercury in 18 it? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why not? 21 A. In my opinion because they were not there. And one 22 other thing is about this mercury toxicity, it is not like 23 some contaminate. It has been put there to enhance the 24 antibacterial activity of the preservative. 25 Q. The pill is supposed to have mercury in it, just 0023 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 very low levels? 2 A. No. That is the new thing. You have to take it up 3 with the toxicologist why they have it at these levels. The 4 reason is to enhance the antibacterial activity. And that 5 meaning, in that letter, the way they are written finally, 6 what it says is that we can use this pill and the rest of it 7 to test all other things. 8 So the mercury toxicity, according to the 9 toxicology expert, the cross reactions of the mercury 10 toxicity may not have killed the other poisons which are 11 there in the blood. 12 Q. And the kidney, you're also wanting to obtain the 13 whole kidney, right, you're going to harvest the entire 14 kidney? 15 A. Usually half of kidney was a better idea because we 16 would like to collect a little more than what it is that is 17 there. If half of kidney should do the thing, and also, 100 18 grams or 300 grams, basing on what we need, we can get that 19 much of a brain and the liver. 20 Q. And are we checking for heavy metals in the kidney? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And now, again, for the liver and the bone and the 23 hair? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Those are primary things? 0024 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. Primary things. 2 Q. Are there any other issues of testing that you're 3 looking for other than heavy metals in the area of the brain, 4 kidney, liver, bone or hair? 5 A. I don't want to speculate. Once we do the test, 6 basing on the results of the test, we may do some further 7 studies. 8 Q. But right now the plan is to test heavy metals? 9 A. That's the main thing, because if they are there, 10 they will be still present. 11 Q. And what are heavy metals? Can you define that? I 12 know it's mercury, but what else would there be? 13 A. Thallium is found in rat poison. And arsenic, 14 lead, iron. That's all that I can think of off the top of my 15 head. 16 Q. It's just not mercury? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And all these can be found, if any of these items 19 exist, even though we're out three months, you should be able 20 to at least test adequately enough to be able to find 21 mercury, rat poison, lead or iron? 22 A. And thallium. 23 Q. And you plan on doing a complete screen of all 24 heavy metals once you get these samples; is that correct? 25 A. That's correct. 0025 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. And let me ask you this: Assuming you find no 2 heavy metals in these areas, the brain, the kidney, the liver 3 and bone and the hair, after you harvest it, then what are 4 you going to do? Are you going to try to finish your report 5 or what are you going to do? 6 A. We are going to look at this case, putting 7 everything together and maybe I will have a meeting with 8 Dr. Siu or maybe another independent forensic pathologist, 9 and we'll take the clinical history, circumstances, and the 10 old case together, and basing on the findings, we'll form an 11 opinion. 12 Q. Have you decided who that independent pathologist 13 will be? 14 A. Not at this time, but we may have another cardiac 15 pathologist look at this. We're not sure at this time. See, 16 we are still -- it's an ongoing. And for a case like this, 17 taking this length of time is not uncommon. 18 Q. Okay. All right. Has Dr. Hadden, aside from being 19 an administrator, chief coroner, has he participated at all 20 in the nuts and bolts of the pathology of this particular 21 case, the testing, the samples, any of that? 22 A. I don't think -- he really doesn't have the 23 hands-on involvement in this case, but in a general sense, he 24 knows what's going on. 25 Q. Now, I take it at this time -- well, I take it that 0026 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 you don't believe that Linda Adanalian at this time died of 2 any foul play? 3 A. How can I say anything of that nature? 4 Q. Suspicious in nature. 5 A. Suspicious in nature, you know, suspicion means 6 only once you confirm something with facts and figures and 7 numbers, then only. I don't want to speculate on that. 8 Q. Is there anything criminal about the way Linda 9 Adanalian died at this time? 10 A. This is a mysterious death. That's all I would 11 say. 12 Q. Do you remember talking to me and Mr. Baradat on 13 May 11th, telling me that you did not believe that there was 14 anything suspicious in her death at that time? 15 A. Suspicious, I was going by the mercury and then 16 this one, but I did not consider too much importance, just 17 the plasma being there, and that's a question. 18 Once the test is saying that you disregard the 19 test, unless I test it separately, showing that there was no 20 mercury in the other tissues as well, then I can confirm. 21 But the plasma is not the ideal specimen to test for the 22 heavy metals. 23 Q. The only problem you have right now is the mercury 24 toxicity? 25 A. That's one of the major concerns. 0027 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. And so eliminating that concern, I want you to 2 assume, eliminating that concern, and there is no other heavy 3 metal found in her system, you don't have any suspicion that 4 she died of foul play; do you? 5 A. Foul play in what sense? That somebody -- 6 Q. Criminal? 7 A. That somebody gave her something? 8 Q. Poisoned her. 9 A. No injuries in the body as I can recall. And there 10 is no other injury per se -- 11 Q. Right. 12 A. -- on the body. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. She didn't have any signs of strangulation or 15 anything. She was a hail and healthy lady and felt sick and 16 then died. 17 Q. Right. And you've seen the amendment to 18 Dr. Edwards' heart pathology autopsy; correct? 19 A. Yes, I have. 20 Q. And assuming you find no heavy metals, once this 21 body is exhumed, is that a reasonable explanation -- well, 22 let me withdraw that. I told you I won't ask that question. 23 You've seen Dr. Edwards' amended autopsy report; 24 correct? 25 A. Yes, I have. 0028 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. And do you have any concerns or problems about that 2 aspect of the investigation after looking at that report? I 3 mean, you don't want to do anything further in regard to 4 biopsying the heart; do you? 5 A. No, we have sent that to an independent expert in 6 the field of cardiac pathology. And we have no reason at 7 this time to do further testing. If need be, we may have to, 8 but at this time, we don't see any reason. 9 And also, I said there is a possibility we may ask 10 another cardiac pathologist to look at it. 11 Q. You know, I had this file and the exhibits marked. 12 I want you to look at the exhibits that I marked,, which is 1 13 through 13. They're all marked here, Doctor. I just want to 14 make sure that these are true and accurate records from your 15 file. Just briefly look at 1 through 13, just so we can mark 16 them. 17 A. Usually come with a sticker. 18 Q. So exhibits 1 through 13 are documents from your 19 file, and 13 is this exemplar toxicology specimen container? 20 A. One through 12 and 13. 21 Q. Okay. All right, Doctor. And so it is your 22 medical opinion that to further conclude the autopsy report 23 and to label a cause of death in this particular case, you 24 feel it is medically necessary to exhume the body; correct? 25 A. That's my opinion. 0029 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. Okay. Now, has the family contacted you, the 2 Dalition family contacted you to exhume the body? Have they 3 requested it also? 4 A. I met with the family in the beginning on a few 5 occasions, and there was a concern regarding the mercury and 6 the cause of death in this case. And I do recall that coming 7 up in the conversation. 8 Q. That they suggested that the body should be 9 exhumed? 10 A. I cannot say they suggested; they were concerned. 11 And also, once we came to know that the mercury tainted, we 12 have tested and the quantity, we wanted to check to see if 13 they can test more on this. But again, it's toss up. 14 If you have mercury in such high levels, it should 15 show in plasma too. But some will say, but with such 16 concerns, it's better to test everything we can, and get more 17 tissue. And also, if we need to have further testing, which 18 we don't know at this time, we can. And I think that's the 19 reasonable approach to this case. 20 Q. Okay. And that's fine. The only other question, 21 one of the other questions I have, you met with Detective 22 Harris, did you not, from the Fresno Police Department 23 regarding this case? 24 A. Yes. He came here and he wanted to know what we 25 are doing. And he got access and made some copies of the 0030 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 report we have. 2 Q. Did he tell who contacted him? 3 A. I don't really recall, but they know there was a 4 concern, and I don't want to speculate. You should ask 5 Mr. Harris who exactly contacted him. 6 Q. I did. And he told me that the Dalition family 7 contacted him. Have you ever heard that from him? 8 A. If nobody contacted him, why would he come here? 9 Q. I know. 10 A. Somebody, because there is a family concern, he 11 said, there is some family concerns that have come here and 12 they think that something would be happening here. 13 Q. Did he tell you which family members had those 14 concerns? 15 A. Sir, I didn't exactly ask that, by the name, 16 because again, this is -- should I tell you what I assumed at 17 that time? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I thought the Dalition family contacted him. 20 That's why they are here. 21 Q. Did any member of the Dalition family tell you that 22 my client, Mr. Adanalian, had anything to do with the death 23 of his wife? 24 A. They said they have some concerns about regarding 25 the cause of death. 0031 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. You implied from that it was as a result of the 2 husband? 3 A. No. Whenever something happens, the husband or the 4 close relative who was with the person, it's not that 5 uncommon to suspect somebody like that. 6 Q. And did any member of the Dalition family talk to 7 you about the marital relationship of the family between Mark 8 and Linda before she died? 9 A. I don't recall any of the specifics because I'm 10 more concerned with the medical findings in this case. 11 Q. Are you telling me that those conversations never 12 occurred regarding the marital relationship between my client 13 and Linda Adanalian, or you just don't remember? 14 A. Yeah, I don't recall the specifics. I know there 15 were some concerns. That's all I can say. 16 Q. Which members of the Dalition family have you met 17 with? 18 A. I have met with George Dalition, David Dalition. I 19 think their sister. 20 Q. Meg? 21 A. Meg? Is that her name? 22 Q. Yes. That would be the sister, if that's who you 23 met with. 24 A. Yeah. She flew down from Texas. 25 Q. And during those meetings, how many times do you 0032 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 think you've met with either of those or those -- 2 A. I met Meg once. Probably Dalition, George, I can 3 only say at least twice. 4 Q. Aside from yourself, was anybody else at that 5 meeting with the Dalitions? 6 A. I think -- I don't know if Dr. Hadden was there in 7 those meetings. 8 Q. Okay. On all of them or just on one? 9 A. I think in most of them. 10 Q. And during those meetings, you don't recall any 11 discussions about my client and his possible involvement in 12 Linda Adanalian's death? 13 A. You know there were some concerns, but I don't know 14 the specifics. 15 Q. You have a general impression that the Dalition 16 family had some concerns about the way that Linda died? 17 A. Sure. 18 Q. And Mr. Adanalian was a part of those concerns; 19 would that be a fair statement? 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. Now, how would somebody ingest mercury toxicity? 22 That's the question I have. I mean, I can see it -- well, 23 aside from your pill, I see it in a thermometer, I know. 24 A. Metallic mercury is not poisonous. 25 Q. What about the mercury in my teeth, if I've had 0033 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 fillings? 2 A. I suppose, if you swallowed the mercury, 3 that's -- again, metallic mercury is not poisonous. 4 Otherwise they wouldn't be putting it there. The only thing 5 that I know, because I have a little background in 6 toxicology, I worked in different countries and people from 7 the British training, killing people with a poison is one of 8 the concerns. 9 So here, usually mercury contaminant is the fumes 10 when you have the mercury fumes are the most poisonous 11 fumes. And then you can have the source of mercury, it could 12 be mercury cyanide, mercury chloride, mercurous fluoride. 13 You can have various components of this mercury. Can be some 14 of the jewelry polishes; they use this. 15 Q. How about through a paint or a product like that? 16 A. The mercury is actually used to sterilize water and 17 also to sterilize swimming pools. It is available. It is 18 basically used as an antibacterial. And also mercury has 19 been used before to clean the wounds. 20 So it has some antiseptic property and 21 antibacterial property. But to ingest mercury, let me tell 22 you, if you ingest mercury, as it is the chloride, it has a 23 more caustic, meaning either acid or alkaline, it causes an 24 erosion in the mucosal lining. Basically it is a kidney 25 toxicity; it causes some changes in the kidney. And also in 0034 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 the long usage, it can cause changes in the brain. 2 Q. If hypothetically, if Linda Adanalian ingested 3 mercury six to 12 hours before she died, hypothetically, 4 would those changes from the ingestion of it show up in any 5 aspect of her organs, esophagus, lungs? 6 A. Yeah, depending on the type of mercury, I expect 7 them to show. And also what is the importance here is the 8 kidney has no changes at all. The kidney -- and I discussed 9 with Dr. Siu also, another thing is, as I recall, mercury 10 does not have any diuretic on the heart. 11 Q. That leads me to another question about the heart, 12 and this is kind of an FYI for me. Just in general terms, if 13 a person has a heart attack, and within two to three hours 14 that person dies, and they had either a mild or massive heart 15 attack and their heart stops and they die, and there's some 16 findings through EKG or other methods that the person did 17 sustain an irregular heartbeat or a heart attack, if someone 18 had those symptoms and died in three hours, would those 19 changes be reflected in the autopsy in the heart? 20 A. It may not. 21 Q. Why is that? 22 A. Because the time period is too short for these 23 changes to take place, and especially the inflammation will 24 not get in that fast. 25 Q. I've talked to a forensic heart pathologist, and he 0035 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 indicated to me that he thought that a good 12 to 18 hours, 2 the patient would have to survive and then die, possibly, 3 till you see those kind of changes. 4 A. That is stretching a lot, but I have seen changes 5 in the four to eight hours. Because my thesis was on the 6 heart when I did my masters, so I did study 121 cases where 7 people died of heart attack. 8 Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say, and I use it in 9 real simplistic terms, somebody hits me in my arm, and I get 10 the pain, but my arm looks okay. I don't start bruising 11 until hours later. Is that the same type of analogy? 12 A. Yeah, in the layman's term you can say that. 13 Because for heart, first of all, the oxygen should be shut 14 off. The blood flow means basically the blood is carrying 15 the oxygen, and it is compromised in some way so that will go 16 in the muscle acting, and then their will be -- the muscle 17 has to die or else a you'll have to see inflammation, which 18 comes anywhere from four to eight hours. 19 Q. You know, Doctor, I looked at your file here, and I 20 did not see the Fresno Community Hospital medical records in 21 there or the American Ambulance records. 22 A. That's right. This is, as far as I know, this is 23 the record I have. Maybe Dr. Siu has some records with him. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. And it's because this is still an ongoing 0036 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 investigation. It has not been completed. This is what 2 concerns us at this time. Also his sketch he makes when he's 3 doing the autopsy is not here either. 4 Q. Have you personally spoken to the emergency ER 5 doctor that handled Linda Adanalian's case? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what did he tell you he thought, if anything? 8 A. If I recall the name, it was Dr. Mosier, and he 9 also felt this clinical presentation was really strange. 10 Q. Did he ever tell you in that conversation that 11 Linda was combative at all? Do you remember him saying 12 anything like that? 13 A. No, he did not tell me that. 14 Q. Would that be significant, if Linda expressed 15 during the time that they brought her in and admitted her 16 that she was uncooperative and combative because of her 17 state? 18 A. Yeah, it can happen. Whenever somebody is 19 hypoglycemia and hypoxia, they can have a combative nature. 20 Q. Could the fact that the lack of oxygen entering the 21 system or the heart not pumping enough blood create somebody 22 to be disoriented and be combative? 23 A. It can happen that way. 24 Q. Do heart attack patients -- do patients that have 25 arrhythmia or the onset of arrhythmia exhibit those types of 0037 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 symptoms of combativeness, disorientation? 2 A. Yes, it can happen that basing on how the heart is 3 pumping. 4 Q. And could they also, if a person is having a heart 5 attack or some type of heart arrhythmia, that they would also 6 express inability to breathe, have a difficult time 7 breathing? 8 A. It can happen that way. 9 Q. Could a person faint? 10 A. It can happen that way. 11 Q. Could a person also have chest pain? 12 A. It can happen, yes. 13 Q. Dr. Pfeifer, I know you've received letters from 14 Dr. Pfeifer. Have you actually met him? 15 A. I have not met Dr. Pfeifer and I have not spoken to 16 him over the phone. That letter came into the file because I 17 think that letter was addressed to Dr. Hadden, and it was 18 finally put in my file. 19 Q. Do you plan on consulting with Dr. Pfeifer in 20 making your ultimate findings and conclusions regarding your 21 autopsy report? 22 A. This is -- Dr. Siu's the main person. And if 23 necessary, to consult somebody, we may do it at that point. 24 And right now, we're not even sure who we are going to 25 consult, and whether to consult somebody is really necessary. 0038 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. Is it necessary for Dr. Pfeifer to be present at 2 the exhuming of the body? 3 A. This is not uncommon for us whenever we are doing 4 an autopsy. The family will request somebody of their own, 5 whoever, who can represent them in any way. We are 6 accommodating a doctor, whether it's a clinical doctor, and 7 the same way, we do not have any objection for that. 8 Q. That's my question, it's not going to present a 9 problem that Dr. Pfeifer be there; correct? 10 A. No. 11 Q. If I want to have a physician on behalf of 12 Mr. Adanalian also to be present, that's not going to 13 create -- 14 A. No, unless they don't fight each other. 15 Q. As long as they're not lawyers, they'll be okay. 16 Just a few final questions: At this time, aside 17 from this mercury issue, there's no evidence that there were 18 any illegal drugs or illicit drugs found in Linda Adanalian; 19 is that correct? 20 A. At this time, basing on what tests we are doing and 21 basing on what specimens we have. 22 Q. Is that correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And aside from this mercury toxicity that hopefully 25 will eventually clear up, aside from that issue, there have 0039 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 not been any poisons or any other toxins found in Linda 2 Adanalian's system? 3 A. In what we have tested so far. 4 MR. PABOOJIAN: Okay. All right. Thank you. 5 That's all. 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. MELIKIAN 7 Q. Doctor, I'll be very quick. I just have a couple 8 of questions to ask you. 9 I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions 10 about what you feel is the necessity of the exhumation and 11 the second autopsy. That's all my questions are going to 12 deal with. 13 MR. PABOOJIAN: I'll stipulate that he feels that 14 it's necessary. I'm not going to argue that he doesn't feel 15 that it's a necessity. So you can ask the question, but I'll 16 stipulate to that. 17 MR. MELIKIAN: That's fine, let's stipulate to that 18 portion. 19 Q. Would you also agree, Doctor, that the tests that 20 you'll be searching for are not limited to the presence or 21 nonpresence of mercury? 22 A. That's what I told you, we have to take one step at 23 a time. First thing is rule -- we have to take care of the 24 mercury. Then later, because we are going to get ample 25 sampling here, so we may do a test for phosphorus, and 0040 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 whatever thing we can, we will test it. And rarer and rarer 2 we go, the chances to find that is more rare. 3 Q. Basically you need more samples in which to 4 reasonably conduct the necessary tests that you want to 5 conduct; is that fair? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Because one test may lead to another test? 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. You don't know what -- 10 A. Yes, without doing the first test, I don't know 11 what I will find in the second one. 12 Q. And you feel at this particular time, there should 13 be sufficient tissues and bone and brain and so forth that 14 would be, should I say, would be testable? 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. To test the brain, the tissues, you think -- we're 17 a little over three months out. Do you think there will be 18 adequate -- 19 A. There should be, because we have done this before 20 and we're able to do with what we have. 21 MR. MELIKIAN: I have no further questions. 22 MR. PABOOJIAN: Okay. 23 MR. MELIKIAN: I'd like to ask Counsel if it would 24 be possible that we might be able to stipulate to the 25 necessity of the exhumation at this time, so we don't have to 0041 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 take the other deposition. 2 MR. PABOOJIAN: I want to talk to my client, and 3 then I want to ask him one more question. 4 (RECESS.) 5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN 6 Q. In regard to the toxicity level in the heart, you 7 said that toxicity, mercury toxicity has no affect on the 8 heart; is that correct? 9 A. Yeah, to cause an arrhythmia. That's why I said no 10 and it's my opinion. 11 Q. And have you ever heard of mercury toxicity causing 12 a coronary spasm? 13 A. Frankly, I do not know of that. 14 Q. You never heard of that? 15 A. I never heard of that. 16 Q. I read some literature, and it's my understanding 17 that mercury toxicity affects your kidneys, could cause 18 nervous disorders, irritability, there's a variety of 19 things. Heart attack, I didn't see. 20 A. I agree with you. 21 MR. PABOOJIAN: I don't have any further 22 questions. 23 MR. MELIKIAN: I don't have anything further. 24 MR. PABOOJIAN: And Doctor, do you want to sign 25 your deposition? Why don't we go -- I'm going to expedite 0042 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 the transcript. You want to sign it? We'll go by code, but 2 I want to expedite the transcript so I can have it by Tuesday 3 morning. 4 MR. MELIKIAN: While we're still on the record, I 5 just have a couple more questions. Would you mind if David 6 asks the questions instead of me? 7 MR. PABOOJIAN: I have no problems with David 8 asking the question. But I'm going to warn you, Dave, you're 9 not an active member and I don't have a problem with it, but 10 you can ask it. It's a deposition. 11 MS. GMUR: I have no opposition. 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID DALITION 13 Q. Just with regard to, Dr. Gopal, with the window of 14 opportunity for harvesting additional specimens, the value of 15 those specimens decreases with passage of time, isn't that 16 correct, as they continue to decompose? 17 A. You know, if the embalming is done, I agree with 18 that, the longer it goes, there is a chance for, you know, 19 this explanation. If we are looking -- if we're looking for 20 mercury, we have voluminous. And the heavy metals per se, no 21 matter what, they should be there. 22 Q. Dr. Gopal, in addition to ruling out the mercury, 23 will the harvesting of additional specimens also go to 24 solving the cause of death in this case, which is still 25 undetermined? 0043 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. Yes, it will help. That's why we want to do 2 further studies. Only after doing further studies basing on 3 those findings, I can make a comment on that. I don't want 4 to speculate at this time. 5 Q. But at this point, based on what you have, you 6 cannot ascertain a cause of death, according to the 7 declaration in the petition signed by Dr. Hadden? 8 A. We don't have a clear cut evidence to come to a 9 conclusion. That's all I can say. What we do in such cases 10 is we'll have to put everything together at some point and 11 then take a second look and form an opinion. And that 12 opinion we don't know what the opinion will be at this time. 13 Q. And you think as far as determining what that cause 14 of death would be the vitreous humor, which wasn't taken, 15 could be helpful? 16 A. Sure. We will be looking at the vitreous humor, 17 and we will be trying to retrieve some of the stomach 18 specimens. Not that it is going to matter, but whatever we 19 can get out of this, we will get it out. 20 Q. And are there other specimens that were not 21 retrieved that we don't have? 22 A. Like the hair and the bone, and more sampling of 23 the tissues will be done. 24 Q. And those will be helpful not only for the mercury 25 but overall, in general, helping you to determine a cause of 0044 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 death? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. As far as tainted blood, at this point, the 4 coroner's office believes that it was tainted by the 5 stabilizer pill; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But that is based on a non-scientific testing; 8 right? 9 A. I cannot say what the scientific and 10 non-scientific. We are doing this test and we have this 11 letter from the Mineral King Laboratories asking us to 12 discard this result altogether. And they are taking -- they 13 are saying it did come from the pill, because we don't do any 14 test at all. They do the testing; we ask the questions. 15 So again, we are one of the -- near as we can be, 16 we are testing this. And once we have those test results, it 17 may throw more light on this. 18 Q. Right. In addition to the vitreous humor and the 19 bone and the muscle, nails could be beneficial, as well as, 20 you mentioned, stomach contents? 21 A. Yes. If we can retrieve that at this time. And 22 I'm not saying how beneficial it will be, but if it is there, 23 and if we can get the stomach lining from there, we can make 24 some solution out of that and preserve it in case that will 25 be a question. 0045 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 Q. And you're hoping it's retrievable still; right? 2 That's the hope? 3 A. Yeah. That's the hope. But for me, that is not a 4 really main issue. 5 Q. But with the passage of time, all of these, the 6 hope of finding vitreous humor decreases with the passage of 7 time; right? 8 A. Depends upon the embalming method. 9 Q. It's more likely that you would find vitreous humor 10 today than a month; right? 11 A. Sure. I agree with that. 12 Q. And as far as the mercury toxicity, it's a very 13 high level in the blood; right? 14 A. Very high, yes. 15 Q. And that's because of a defective preservative 16 pill; correct? 17 A. I can't say it's defective. Maybe it's a new 18 method which they did, and mercury is not that common, and it 19 is an antibacterial component to enhance the effectiveness of 20 the pill itself. It's something which comes with the 21 manufacturer. They're not saying that it is a contaminate, 22 that they will stop manufacturing this pill, no they're not 23 saying that. 24 They're asking us don't use this pill when you test 25 for mercury. And we tested for heavy metals right away, and 0046 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 according to them, we can still use it for other purposes. 2 Q. But it hasn't been definitively decided whether or 3 not a toxicologists have differing opinions as to whether or 4 not mercury in that high a level would have a crossover 5 contamination effect on inorganic and other organic types of 6 toxins; correct? 7 A. No, they're not saying that. That's why I defer 8 all these questions to the toxicologist. 9 Q. So you're not sure? 10 A. I am not sure. It's beyond my expertise to talk 11 about the cross-reactions of the mercury and other products. 12 That way, we will be testing whatever we're testing now from 13 the tissues we collect. 14 Q. The blood is the gold standard for testing things; 15 correct? 16 A. Yeah. Everything goes by the blood toxic levels. 17 That's what I've been saying. 18 Q. So blood is the gold standard? 19 A. If you want to use the word "gold standard," yes. 20 Q. Would you use that word? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And in this case, as Dr. Hadden stated in his 23 petition, the blood is unusable; right? 24 A. For further testing, yes. 25 Q. On the additional specimens that are harvested, not 0047 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 only can toxicology be run, but also histology? 2 A. The histology is the -- it can be, but histology is 3 more, again, depending on the embalming, we have tissues of 4 all the organs for histology, and the main organs, the 5 initial symptoms show, like the heart and lungs have been -- 6 MS. GMUR: I'd like to stop the questioning. How 7 many more questions are you going to ask? 8 MR. PABOOJIAN: Because of what he asked, I've got 9 a few follow-up. And I'll make it brief. 10 MS. GMUR: Please. 11 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN 12 Q. Mr. Dalition was talking about the blood being 13 unusable because of the mercury. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The 15 milliliters that we had? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. If Mineral King is allowing you to use the tablets 18 still, but telling you not to test for mercury, the tablets 19 have no other effect on testing for other heavy metals? 20 A. According to them, no. 21 Q. So why are we exhuming? 22 A. Mercury is one of the things we have to rule out. 23 Q. That's what I want to know. We are 24 exhuming -- we want to rule out mercury toxicity; is that the 25 primary reason? 0048 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. That's one of the primary reasons. And also there 2 is this question, we're not sure at this time if it arises 3 that some of the mercury could have had -- and it's beyond my 4 expertise -- some cross-reaction of some sort. Once there is 5 a scientific reasoning and there's a legal reasoning. 6 Scientific, this is what I am saying. Legally, once you say 7 it is tainted specimen, let's discard the specimen. That's 8 the legal standard. 9 So for all that, it's better to get a fresh tissue 10 and go from there. 11 Q. And all I'm saying is it would be more reliable to 12 exhume the body? 13 A. Exactly. And also I stand corrected, blood is the 14 gold standard, agreed, but you have other levels of whatever 15 in the brain and the kidney so we can interpret or make 16 calculations to say what would be the blood levels because 17 blood carries all of these to these various organs. So that 18 way we will be clear. 19 You can ask the same question, why are we testing 20 the tissue when you're not -- most of the time you don't get 21 the blood down there. 22 Q. Well, you have current tissue of the brain, the 23 lungs, and some organs. Continue you take samples of those 24 and determine whether or not there's mercury toxicity levels 25 in those? 0049 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 MS. GMUR: Asked and answered. 2 MR. PABOOJIAN: Did I? 3 MS. GMUR: Yes. Would you like me to go and find 4 the answer? 5 MR. PABOOJIAN: And this will be the final one. 6 Q. Mr. Dalition asked you about the nails, stomach -- 7 fingernails, stomach content, maybe some lining of the 8 stomach, bone, more brain -- well, strike that. 9 My understanding is that bone, hair, and nails were 10 not harvested during the original autopsy? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Is there a reason why? Is that just not done 13 standard? 14 A. We are going with the standard protocol of what the 15 case came from and what the clinical history. Every case is 16 treated that way. And basing, as you go along, we do that, 17 and there's no reason to collect hair, bone and the nails in 18 every case. 19 Q. And just because we've taken an extra week or ten 20 days to maybe do this exhuming of the body, that in your 21 opinion is not going to affect any ability to disprove this 22 toxicity, mercury toxicity? 23 A. Mercury toxicity and also the heavy metals. 24 Q. It's not that big of a deal we've waited a week or 25 two weeks? 0050 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 A. Yes, as far as heavy metals is concerned. The only 2 suggestion we can make is the earlier, the better. 3 MR. PABOOJIAN: All right. That's all I have. I'm 4 done. 5 MR. MELIKIAN: I'm done, thank you. 6 (The deposition was concluded at 4:50 p.m.) 7 -oOo- 8 9 I hereby declare under penalty of perjury that 10 I have read the foregoing and it is true and correct to the 11 best of my knowledge, including any corrections that I have 12 made. 13 14 VENU GOPAL, M.D. 15 Subscribed to this day of , 20 . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0051 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 State of California, ) ) ss. 2 County of Fresno. ) 3 4 I, GAE WERFEL, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of 5 the State of California, do hereby certify that the witness 6 in the foregoing deposition, named 7 VENU GOPAL, M.D., 8 was by me duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth 9 and nothing but the truth in the within-entitled cause; that 10 said deposition was taken at the time and place therein 11 named; that the testimony of said witness was reported by me, 12 a disinterested person, and thereafter transcribed into the 13 foregoing pages. 14 15 And I further certify that I am not of counsel or 16 attorney for either or any of the parties to said deposition, 17 nor in any way interested in the outcome of the cause named 18 in said caption. 19 20 In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand at 21 my office in Fresno, California, this 29th day of May, 2000. 22 23 GAE WERFEL, C.S.R. No. 4919 24 25 0052 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN............................... 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. MELIKIAN............................... 40 2 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN...................... 42 EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID DALITION......................... 43 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN...................... 48 Exhibits 1 through 4 10 were marked for identification.) /// EXAMINATION BY MR. PABOOJIAN 5 doctor, could you please state and spell your full name for the record, please? My name is Venu Gopal. V as 6 in Victor, E N U; Gopal is the last name, G as in George, O P A L. And what is your current profession? 7 I'm a licensed physician, and I have a specialty in pathology and forensic pathology. Are you licensed to 8 practice pathology in the State of California? Yes, I am. And you are a licensed M.D. in the State of............ 4 9 Exhibit 11................................................ 10 Exhibit 12................................................ 13 10 Exhibit 13................................................ 17 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0053 FRESNO COURT REPORTERS *** 559.224.9700